The United States Mint has published images of the 2024 Flowing Hair Silver Medal as part of the lead-up to its scheduled release on Oct. 15, coinciding with the 230th anniversary of the 1794 Flowing Hair dollar, the first U.S. dollar coin. This medal showcases the iconic designs originally created by Robert Scot, the U.S. Mint’s inaugural Chief Engraver.
The silver medal images reveal not only its designs but also those of the companion 230th Anniversary Flowing Hair Gold Coin, which is slated for release sometime this fall.
In late 2023, design renderings for the pair were presented to the Commission of Fine Arts (CFA) and the Citizens Coinage Advisory Committee (CCAC). The review panels offered differing final recommendations. The CFA favored alternatives addressing alignment concerns in the original 1794 designs, while the CCAC endorsed the originals. Ultimately, the originals prevailed, with the U.S. Mint describing the final designs as "true replicas of the original dollar, re-sculpted by Mint medallic artists." The re-sculpting is credited to Mint medallic artists John P. McGraw for the obverse and Eric David Custer for the reverse.
The obverse presents the original 1794 dollar, updated with the year "2024." Liberty’s portrait faces right, encircled by 15 stars representing the states that had ratified the Constitution by 1794. The reverse depicts a laurel wreath surrounding an eagle with spread wings, an early predecessor to the American heraldic eagle.
Priced at $104, the silver medal’s mintage has yet to be announced, but it will carry an initial household order limit of five. Struck in an uncirculated finish at the Philadelphia Mint, the medal features a composition of .999 fine silver, weighs 1.000 troy ounce, has a diameter of 1.598 inches (40.60 mm), and a plain edge.
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Similar to the 1794 silver dollar, the 24-karat 2024 Flowing Hair Gold Coin will have its denomination incused on the edge, reading: HUNDRED ★★ CENTS, ★★ ONE ★★ DOLLAR ★, and ★ OR ★★ UNIT ★★★.
The first 1794 Flowing Hair silver dollars were struck on Oct. 15, 1794, with the U.S. Mint producing just 1,758 of them that year.
Now I know a lot of collectors out there love the throw-back designs on the classic coins, but I must say that the 30-degree straight slope from the top tip of the head to the bottom tip of the nose is a bit comical. I guess that was the beauty standard back in 1794, to not have a forehead.
Major D,
Once again in the ever applicable each to his own taste department the admittedly somewhat “funny-looking” old-timey look of the original image on the silver medal rather appeals to my sense of historical period sculpting practices so I find myself quite pleased the CCAC’s opinion managed to prevail in regard to the ultimate design.
Kaiser, absolutely “each to his own”. I do like the “old-timey” look on the original because it has character. The perfected “new-timey” one, not so much. In the words of Don Henley, I saw a DEADHEAD sticker on a Cadillac
A little voice inside my head said, “Don’t look back. You can never look back”.
Major D,
I do understand the distinction you’re making and I can certainly relate to it. Taking that particular consideration into account, what makes me feel so positive about the choice made is that had the CFA’s total modernization approach prevailed the current day replica’s appearance would have been miles rather than inches removed from a likeness with the original.
Bingo!
Rick,
Thank you kindly!
Major D,
You can look back; whether or not you like what you see is a different story.
I agree that this Flowing hair needed to look primitive like made in the 1790s. Add a die crack? It’s nice but the cost 3x Au+ gold over 3500….. mintage will be critical but the silver is just a medal, I can get silver rounds of Flowing Hair$ for what $35?
John Q. Coinage, Absolutely. That’s why I cheered when I saw the decision had been made to not “correct” the spacing, placement and other assorted “errors” of the original coin. I mean, how exactly had they imagined any modern reconfiguration of its details would somehow have “improved” on this exquisite masterpiece? As for the silver medal, we’re clearly stuck with that as opposed to being able to acquire a silver coin unless and until the Congress decides to make a change in that legislation. However, I never hear even the slightest rumblings in that regard, so silver medals it is… Read more »
I’m a 20° guy….
¯\_ʘ‿ʘ_/¯
Rick,
Oh my, that forever neck! Just lovely.
Too much forehead. Lose another 10 degrees and she’s a hottie.
Lolol, I tried…
She does have Flowing Hair! But it’s all bundled up, oh well.
Browslopephobia. That one’s going right into my PC handbook.
For any that may have an interest. Slated for release in tomorrows Federal Register. CCAC Meeting for September 24, 2024 at 1-4 pm EST. This will be held via remote teleconference. “Review and discussion of the candidate designs for the 2025 Comic Art Super Heroes coins and medals; review and discussion of the candidate designs for the Emmett Till and Mamie Till- Mobley Congressional Gold Medal; and review and discussion of the candidate designs for the Lower Brule Sioux Tribe Code Talkers Congressional Medals.” For those wishing to view the meetings live stream, you can go to the US Mints… Read more »
CaliSkier,
Well, that is quite a full-on discussion of a whole variety of medals and coins in that upcoming teleconference. Thanks for spreading awareness of it taking place on September 24 and for filling us in on what the particulars under discussion will be.
Thanks Cali! I really couldn’t be less interested about those Superheroes
John Q. Coinage,
I agree the concept is inane, but it seems the US Mint has the need to emulate foreign mints that have gone whole hog into all sorts of quirky coin manifestations.
Imagine if they did 4 Classics a year, say a gold Stella, a 1804 $1 in Au, Gobrecht 1$ and 1913 Liberty 5c in silver! Nahh let’s do a Supergirl coin…wtf
John Q. Coinage,
As long as we are allowing ourselves the freedom (liberty?) of our numismatically boundless imaginations, I’m happy to get on board with both an expansion and a slight tweak of your splendid idea, which is for the United States Mint to be authorized and directed to make one gold and one silver coin each of at least one but not more than four Classic Coins every year. As for Supergirl and her friends, how about we leave that series to bright and shiny prize tokens tucked in with Happy Meals and/or hidden in Crackerjack boxes.
I’m actually quite excited about this release. I do however so wish the Medal was a coin as most on here have shared. The main reason I’m so excited is I’m going to get to add more gold to my gold stash. I lived almost my entire life without being able to afford Gold. Now, I’m old and I can finally get Gold. I’ve been adding over the past 4-5 years gold but I kinda kept that from the Wife, mostly with 1/10th oz gold coins. It’s really hard to justify even a thousand dollars on a coin much less… Read more »
AKBob, I’m very happy for you that in your golden years you are now able to fulfill what appears to have been a lifelong but of necessity put on hold dream, which was for you to be able to acquire a stash of gold. The see-saw of life once again shows itself to clearly operate rather differently for every one of us, since my gold buying days on the other hand would have been in my younger, working years whereas nowadays there are no longer any spare resources for that sort of optional expense. Ironically, my peak earning period coincided… Read more »
AKBob, congrats on following your passion! You may end up having the biggest Alaska stash since that Alaska Centennial Nugget found in Ruby!
I’m in for the Gold AKBob, More details would be nice as to how many will be available? If they do things like the L&B then I won’t believe them. A week after the L&B 30 day window had closed I thanked Ventris face to face at the ANA show last March. I said I appreciated how that release was handled, and we know how that turned out. As I started to move on she said “wait until this fall” to me and others nearby. Well what does that mean to me right now? Not much. I think she needs… Read more »
I may get the gold but it will be $3500+…. The #$ will tell for the legs in aftermarket. Kinda too sanitary looking but still neat. I really but nothing anymore from the USM. Nice HR they haven’t quite appreciated as I’d hoped.
Ditto on both coins. Aftermarket shopping is where I’m trending as well John..
Spot has helped the 2009 a lot. Too many struck didn’t help, but a great final result in the coin. The Mint does a good job on the HR coins. The coin is so thick that the holder has to be thicker too. It doesn’t fit into the std slab boxes like in the pic, so it’s lonely lol…
John Q. Coinage and Rick,
The current steady climb of spot gold prices must be giving you guys a real good feeling about your “back in the day” gold coin purchases!
Yes, but these days not so much.
Rick,
This is perplexing. I thought that precious metal prices doing so well would raise everybody’s boat. What am I missing here?
A lot of good deals, a lot missed. Overall pretty good with the spot rise, pre ‘33 premium has dropped, a double edge sword, picked up a 1873 open3 $20 62 for “just” $2,100 before the latest spot pop. Perhaps Kaiser the 1904 $20 my dad bought me back in the 1970s for $48.50 looks pretty good. LA Times has a classified as for years $20 Au for $48.50 :>}. Now let silver return to a 20-1 Ratio
HAD……. Duhhhh
John Q. Coinage, “A lot of good deals, a lot missed.” What a great way to start your answer, particular in reference to how I had phrased my question. Bonus points for that one, my friend. Regarding that 1904 $20 your dad picked up in the ’70s for $48.50, calling it a “pretty good” purchase is likely the understatement of the year. A true coup is what I would call it. The LA Times “has” (versus “had”) puzzled me a bit, so thanks for the subsequent clarification. I almost ran to the local news stand to take advantage of that… Read more »
I was speaking in terms of buying gold in the current spot situation ‘these day’s.’ But yes, any gold purchased just a few years ago and beyond is looking pretty good!
Rick,
Many thanks for the explanation. Now of course your previous reply makes perfect sense, as in bought gold low, can sell high now (or hold onto it for even better days). Only current gold purchases would be somewhat questionable since we never know which way the precious metals market is going to go long term.
Kaiser, I have to say it’s absolutely great for the added value of all my past Au coin purchases, but it dictates a more discretionary attitude concerning future purchases. For me, it isn’t a question about disposable funds, it’s about buying value. Unfortunately I don’t see value buying from the mint at their current premium over spot for both Ag and Au. But I certainly don’t disparage anyone from buying what they want as that’s what makes the world go round. It’s not like the mint is the only place you can find Au coins for sale. BTW Kaiser, for… Read more »
Logical Craig, but the USM prices are about a non starter for me, at this since 1968
Craig, Your analysis makes a lot of sense to me; I see it as representing both a positive outlook and a cautionary approach to acquiring precious metals in the current market. Even if you are able to buy gold and silver this might not be the best time to do it. Then again, regarding the “makes the world go round” concept, we certainly get nowhere just by sitting on our hands forever. Sometimes action of any kind is better than no movement at all. I suppose it’s all about trying to strike what one can only hope is a proper… Read more »
AkBob, I appreciate your desire to collect as much Au as you can, but I question why you are doing so by buying from the mint. Don’t get me wrong, I’ve bought many Au coins from the mint in the past, but those pieces didn’t have the premium/fee costs of current coins. For example, I bought several 2006 Au Buffalos for $800.00 each when Au spot was $625 or so. I would see a nice profit on these if I ever wanted, or needed, to sell them. I did buy the 2021 4 coin Au proof set for over $5K… Read more »
Craig,
I agree that’s a lot of very good advice for the purposes of purchasing gold wisely, as in most economically and to best future advantage. However, for those of us in the “perhaps less than the average bear level of discretionary funds availability” club, ceasing gold purchases from the Mint and going to an Au bullion dealer instead is akin to leaving Rolls Royce and going to Lexus.
By the way, this is what an 18K Gold Rolls Royce medallion looks like:
Kaiser,
Only 18K gold? I’d have thought Rolls Royce would’ve gone with 24K. But then again, I’d never know as I’ve never owned a RR. Lol.
Craig,
Thieves, while their trade would predicate laziness aren’t however always stupid, so if they knew these medallions were solid gold there wouldn’t be a single Rolls Royce still sporting one of these on its grille.
Kaiser,
It’s bad enough wondering if someone is going to rip your catalytic converter off while your enjoying a meal or movie, but having a 18k item just begging someone to take it, well that would be a bit much for me. I guess that’s one of the reasons I’ve never hung any of my gold coins out on my front door. How much Au is in one of those medallions? It does make for an eloquent statement on the car, but it’s probably one of the reasons you never see a RR parked at the mall.
Craig, I suppose that’s one of the problems with having anything that is valuable and yet accessible to the public; you’re never going to be sure it’s going to be there when you get back to it. A couple of thoughts regarding Rolls Royce owners, that is, as I would imagine they might think and/or behave. First, if they have a Rolls they likely have a chauffeur so there will always be someone watching the parked vehicle. Or if they drive themselves, they are willing to chance something happening but they know they can afford to replace any missing part,… Read more »
Craig I snagged the Buffalo w fractional set like $1,800? but got Unc which is worth less then the proof. In the day you;could get real good deals on mint gold, pre grid Times. Still did better in the aftermarket buying the gold JFK and SLQ
J Q C,
Those fractional sets are two of my best gold purchases from the mint. Congratulations and consider yourself fortunate to have the Uncirculated Set, even though it’s valued a bit less than the Proof Set..they’re both great to own. In a way, it’s a shame the mint only issued those fractional sets for the one year as I was planning on buying them each year. Oh, if we could only go back and do it all over again!
Craig, yes, they were going to issue fractional until they weren’t. All those 1/2z proof AGEs I got back @$400 are a lot now. Cag would say 1/2z a loser, uh no Charlie
J Q C,
I wouldn’t call any fractional AGE coin a loser. I’ve collected several of the 1/10th oz AGE’s as well as the big $50 coin. You did very well with those $25 AGE’s, as they now cost $1675 from the mint. We can barely buy a 1/10th oz AGE for $400 now. If I were you, I’d hold on to all of those ‘loser’ 1/2 oz AGE’s! I don’t know who Cag is, but he doesn’t sound wise to me.
Craig and John Q. Coinage,
Sometimes whatever product sells less now might just be viewed as being more scarce later. I would give these value comparisons time to shake out; who knows what the future has in store for the price of fractionals compared to ounces?
John Q. Coinage,
This is just my two cents worth, but I might contend that just because Uncirculated Gold and Silver typically sell for less than their Proof counterparts that shouldn’t always mean that the former will never surpass the latter in a down the road aftermarket, especially since there are often less Uncirculated than Proof to be had due to what each of their initial sales volumes amounted to.
I’ve never owned a Flowing Hair coin before so I will be in for this medal. Has anyone noticed that when looking at Lady Liberty’s eye it may look open or it may look closed? One of those brain teasers. Maybe she was winking at me.
Rooster,
The stronger the magnification the more obviously her eye is open, wide open in fact.
Kaiser I did zoom in and you are correct. I did not notice her pupil until this. But still odd at normal viewing.
Rooster,
The wide open pupils remind me of the effect of glaucoma test eye drops.
Kaiser: I was thinking a contact lens.
Rooster,
Yep, that’s even better. Wait, does this mean she’s a time traveler?
Nope some Indica from California
Well, that certainly explains it.
I am pretty sure she was winking at me.
East Coast Guru: Well now I am getting jealous. Are you sure she was winking or just blinking?
Rooster and East Coast Guru,
If you gents prefer your women well into their third century of life then she is the perfect partner for either of you. She is, however, a tad too young for me.
Kaiser: Too funny!
Rooster,
We send out a quiver load of arrows and a lucky one hits the mark.
The Mint sure is winking at you, with those premiums, that’s for sure.
VA Bob,
Good one!
Yes they are Bob. That is why my subscriptions have been reduced by 80-90%.
Yesterday, I received an e-mail from the Mint, reminding to check your account to verify credit card and shipping information. They are getting ready to ship the 2024 Uncirculated Coin Sets! They also mention: “Due to new safety procedures at our fulfillment centers, it is taking longer to process and ship orders. Thanks for your patience.” Now for the $29 question. Will they try and sneak in a last minute price rai$e, on US Mint clad products via a Federal Register notice, prior to shipping or “let it ride”? After all they raised the price on silver products just 2-days… Read more »
I have noticed all year that they’ve had that(delay)message up and it could be due to their fulfillment center moving to texas?
I’m not in the least affected by any of the mints sudden changes concerning prices because I cancelled all subscriptions I held with them. My sense is I’m not the only person to do this and wonder, with fewer buyers ordering items, why the delay in processing and shipping.
Craig, Good question!! I’ve canceled ALL of my subscriptions too. I’m only interested in the Au Flowing Hair and the Au American Liberty Series, that’s about it other than my annual bullion MS70 PCGS FS Flag Label and the Burnished ASE as well, graded the same as the bullion ASE. Otherwise it’s Pre ‘33 Au. I’m pretty much done with the Mint as far as purchases go. I’m not even interested in the 2021 Mor/Pea any longer much less the ‘23 & ‘24. I’ve almost sold all of them and I had well over 100 of them!! I backed the… Read more »
AKBob,
Just a point of information, unlike for the other precious metals on its coin menu, the Mint does not maintain a pricing grid for silver.
Kaiser, I’m sorry for taking so long to respond to your comment about the Mints pricing grid. I knew already it didn’t apply to Silver Ag. I posted that regarding gold not silver but I can see how you might of thot I was thinking silvers on the pricing grid. I appreciate you bringing that up as some newer collectors may not know that. I don’t mind being corrected even if I wasn’t wrong, lol! I have thick skin in that regard. It’s stress and anxiety that I don’t deal well with so I avoid that like it was the… Read more »
AKBob, No worries about the length of the “response time” as we are for sure not on some sort of stop watch here. In fact, getting any answer at all is a welcome bonus, so to speak. My apologies regarding the “silver pricing grid” interpretation mix-up. I see now upon giving your comment another read that you were referring to the gold pricing grid only and that you were clearly aware such a chart did not exist at the Mint in the case of silver products. You don’t have to explain to me about stress and anxiety, my friend, since… Read more »
AKBob, I like the way you and your wife have saved money over the years! Too many people in today’s society think they have to have the newest and best widget and as a result all they build is bad credit and debt. I scrimped and scraped after buying my 1st house and eventually paid it off after only 11 years. I’ve never paid another mortgage since then, which was in 1996. I’ve been buying coins from the mint since then (I know I should’ve bought the Au set with that ’95 W!) but also learned about investing in the… Read more »
Craig, I purchased the maximum allowable from the Mint on the 2021 Mor/Pea and then I kept buying them off ebay. I mostly purchased 3 coins at a time because I wanted them still sealed/unopened since I was planning on sending them in for grading plus I like sealed box’s, no cherry picking that way. I purchased them immediately after each release and then I just held onto them till this year. I only have a couple left now. I will definitely share my opinion of the Au FH. More than likely Rick will post photos of his, assuming he’s… Read more »
Great story AKBob, I enjoyed everything you said about how you have gotten where you’re at today.
Craig,
You’ve followed a good plan or pattern if you will. I have kept to a similar trajectory whenever I could, and it’s paying off now. A little money in the bank, a modest but steady income stream, and perhaps above all else, no debts of any kind. It’s good to store those acorns.
Craig,
As I pointed out above, and not just due to my interactions with the Mint but also thanks to my own thirty-plus years in the logistics (production planning, inventory management, packaging development and purchasing, order processing and fulfilment, transport mode selection, customer interface & satisfaction) business I know that it’s always wiser to promise less and deliver more. In other words, there may be no anticipated delay in shipping and delivery but if one does crop up it won’t be as likely to take you by surprise.
I fired the mint years ago as well Craig….
John Q. Coinage,
The problem with that is the Mint is likely to be as concerned with little folks like us refusing to buy its wares anymore about as much as Exxon-Mobil would be if any of us switched to a different brand of gasoline.
Yup. Kind of a pyramid scheme now with the price levels, well many here are on the base @ least
John Q. Coinage,
In my humble opinion the entire world has operated as one big pyramid scheme since time immemorial; this is why there have always been palaces on the one hand and hovels on the other.
But that’s a story for another day. Everybody Wang Chung tonight.
Craig,
Shipping from the Mint has been faster than ever, which is why some of us here are speculating what the real point of that “slower than usual” notice might be.
CaliSkier, Unless the Mint is anticipating another possible COVID-inspired shutdown I’m not sure exactly what “new safety procedures” refers to in regard to their new Texas distribution facility. As Rick points out this could be a reference to being more cautious and careful at the new center, in which case the Mint might be holding on to this advisory just for general principles. It’s also common practice for shippers to promise later and deliver earlier since that makes them more popular than would the other way around. Cancellations of subscriptions have to be made five days before release date, not… Read more »
Bingo again! That’s what the Mint is doing. The delay warning is a “just in case” message I think.
I’ve placed 5 orders this year and every one came in 2 days(but I’m near TX?). Faster than a decade ago using UPS imo. Similar speediness as yourself and MD with your Silver PF sets. Maybe they’re making up for something else with the fast shipping? Interestingly enough, the one product that did not ship from TX was the L&B Gold. It came from the regular location that slips my mind at the moment.
Rick,
You’re so right, the Mint’s shipping speed of late has been phenomenal. It’s ironic that they’re putting out this “possible delay” warning precisely when the promptness of their deliveries is exceeding all previous records.
Holy Spicoli, Batman, just look at those precious metal prices heading toward new heights, and most especially so among them the one and only headliner, King Gold!
I’m looking forward to the Wonder Woman coin. I wonder if they’ll use Lynda Carter as an inspiration. Wonder Woman! Wonder Woman!
Antonio, you know we can always count on Wonder Woman to work wonders!
I’ll wait to see what the aftermarket price is.
Fun with US Mint sales numbers! The last known sales report showed 12,678, 2023 Eleanor Roosevelt PDS 3-roll sets sold, out of a possible 12,620 maximum product limit.
Numbers, schmumbers… accounting or accurate accounting at its finest? Of course, as some would like to say, this is all with in the, trade, “accepted accounting standards or practice”?
CaliSkier,
Surely (“Don’t call me Shirley”) you’re familiar with the expression “Close [and/or good] enough for government work”. Sound’s like it might be applicable here.
Out of a maximum mintage of 750,000 across all product options(PF, Unc, 3-coin PF set), the 2024 Greatest Generation half dollar sales are currently at a LKS of 28,389. The Harriet Tubman half dollars with the same 750,000 max mintage limit across all product options, has total half dollar sales of, 20,965. That’s just 3.8% and 2.8% of their listed maximum mintages respectively. The “Glass half full” point of view, is that they are both getting solid A’s, for the percentage of products not sold, coming in at 96.2% and 97.2% respectively! That leaves roughly or approximately, just 720K and… Read more »
CaliSkier,
For reasons and/or purposes far beyond any capacity I might have to divine, the Mint goes through this very same charade regarding the unusually extravagant maximum mintage numbers of its various commemorative coins every single year.
How’s this for a CCAC recommendation – DISCONTINUE THE COMMEMORATIVE PROGRAM. Or at least quit making clad half dollars. Either no halves or SILVER halves.
I don’t think they de trash many coins from over production. I think they do small batches to meet previous demand levels. Just a guess, though.
DaveSWFL,
Clad Half Dollars are already priced as if they were made of Silver, so your suggestion makes perfectly good sense. I’m willing to bet though that if the Mint switched those to Silver also the price would shoot up immediately.
Regarding the number of each of the various Commemorative Coins produced by the Mint, while the stated maximum limits may be sky-high, the production runs are to the contrary likely rather limited. The people at the Mint may be somewhat foolish but I don’t think they’re entirely clueless.
Kaiser, I’m not so sure about “production runs are to the contrary likely rather limited.” If you look at the actual coin acts for GG and Tubman, it seemingly directs the Mint to make the exact number. It doesn’t say to make up to the number, at its discretion.
H.R.1057 – 117th Congress (2021-2022): Greatest Generation Commemorative Coin Act | Congress.gov | Library of Congress
Here’s the Tubman Coin Act: H.R.1842 – 117th Congress (2021-2022): Harriet Tubman Bicentennial Commemorative Coin Act | Congress.gov | Library of Congress
Kaiser and others, my bad- I should have bothered to read the entire text of the Coin Act, and not just the summary before posting. Unfortunately, I caught my error after the edit time had lapsed. The act does have language that says “Not more than” so it is not an exact production number.
Major D,
No big deal, my friend. For that matter, it served to prompt me to check the exact language again myself to make sure I wasn’t after all steering our people here in the wrong direction.
Besides, the real crux of the matter is the ludicrous “maximum” production numbers the Congress continues to stipulate commemorative coin after commemorative coin. After all, doesn’t anyone in those high on the hill august halls ever bother to read the Mint’s reports regarding the all too often absolutely pathetic sales totals of these coins with the mandated sky high “limits”?
DaveSWFL, I couldn’t agree more with You and most others here mostly do as well (I think). The extremely high mintages and those clad half dollars just aren’t appealing to collectors. There’s rarely an upside to them too! Not too many folks are really into modern clad coins either unless it’s the proof or uncirculated mint sets. I doubt the Mints listening tho.
AKBob,
The real irony here is that while some of these way overpriced clad commemorative coins could well be worth something someday it will likely end up being so far in the future that not only will their original buyers be but a memory but so as well may be the entire hobby of coin collecting.
Anyone paying $55 for a clad quarter is NUTS
Or half……ooops
Knew what you meant, John; no problem here!
John Q. Coinage,
But can we still appreciate the simple distractions of being somewhat on the nutty side even if we don’t buy $55 Clad Half Dollars?
Mintage product limits for coins (legal tender) are set by congress. It’s written right in the legislation. The mint has more input when it comes to the production of medals.
Christo,
It appears this is as if we are no longer just comparing apples to oranges but throwing in kumquats and cranberries for good measure. The Mint makes so many different sorts of coins for such a wide variety of reasons that exactly which of the coin production limits and/or numbers are decreed and/or initiated by the U.S. Congress, the Federal Reserve or the Mint itself are facts currently lost on me.
Christo, this is not meant to be argumentative, but rather just curious as to what happens to product limits in the case of surprise Fed ordering. Or, were you speaking of numismatic products, and not circulation? For instance (from Dec 15, 2023 article in CoinNews) “the past two fiscal years (2021 and 2022), the Federal Reserve unexpectedly ordered millions of Kennedy half dollars for circulation.”
U.S. Mint Strikes 604M Coins in November; 50c Mintages Soar to ’83 High (coinnews.net)
Major D,
It would seem that actual circulating coin production mintages would be a result of requests for specific amounts of each denomination of coinage from the Federal Reserve and not due to legislative directives from Congress.
I was specifically speaking of commemoratives. The laws covering circulating coins are not the same as you noted.
Thanks for clarification. That’s what happens when reading the comments from the bottom-up, instead of top-down.
Major D,
Excellent point. I used to start from the bottom (newest) comments also until I figured out I needed to start at the top each time.
Christo,
No matter how you cut it, there are a lot of different “cooks” in this “kitchen”. No wonder they come up with some “half-baked” ideas!
Kaiser, E 1 et al.,
Here’s another attempt at attaching photos of interesting (to me) coins,, This should especially appeal to you, Kaiser. Can you educate me on the translation of “vereinsthaler”? Thaler, I know about, but Google translate didn’t help any.
Sam-I-am,
A Vereinsthaler was a pre-unification standard value and weight coin designed to make commerce easier between the various then-independent German states.
Sam-I-am,
I feel bad for not mentioning what an impressive, beautiful coin that Vereinsthaler is!
And here’s the reverse….
Thanks for sharing Sam!
I agree with AKBob, the reverse is great with lots of details that are on the higher end of AU. You can tell that it was a very dark coin before being cleaned. Really Nice coin you have and genuine, that’s what authentication is all about for those old coins! Since the coin was upgraded to a Gold shield service level you should have hi rez photos of that coin that you can share—like this image of ”your coin!”…..
Rick,
How do I go about accessing and attaching the PCGS photos? They are far better than anything I can produce!
Kaiser,
This may be a good one for you.
1861 – Probably one of the more interesting and more difficult times in German History. Much much long before all the madness of course.
Sam,
Good job with your photo upload. Yes, 2.00 MB or less and the JPEG format has always went through for me. Rick came through with the authentication. Maybe Cali can come through with more info. I hope we were able to help you.
All my best
E1
E 1,
You are so right, my friend! First, the mere appearance of German terminology is already more than enough to get my blood moving faster. Then, the addition of some great photos of what is clearly a historically rather significant and altogether fabulous looking coin is yet another major step toward making my (numismatic) day. By the way, many thanks for helping to bring this delightful coin bonanza to my all too often divided and/or distracted attention; much appreciated indeed!
E 1,
I’ve often said (to any who would listen) that coins are history you can hold in your hand. I can’t afford anything in the way of ancient Greek or Roman art, yet I can hold a 2500-year-old coin in my hand, and feel some connection to those long gone times.
Sam,
I agree. When holding an extremely old coin in your hand, you do get a sense of being there. That sensation is real and cannot be denied.
E 1 and Sam-I-am,
I was just thinking about what both of you described regarding the feelings that these ancient coins allow you to have; that led me to wonder yet further. I would imagine it isn’t just the time period of the coin’s minting that can as such be evoked but also a sense of the eras of history since that beginning as the coin has been passed along from one person to another for well over two thousand years.
Sorry for the poor photo quality. I’m having to use my wife’s cell phone camera, set to low res. Kaiser, any idea why the reverse has the Roman XV? I assume the “fine Pound” refers to the monetary unit? Not very “shiny”, but not run-of-the-mill, either.
Sam-I-am, thanks for sharing this coin! What I really like is the reverse side! I actually purchased a German coin, raw/ungraded off ebay a few months ago only because I loved the reverse, which was an Eagle very similar to yours! I don’t remember where it’s at or I’d put it on here for you to see. I had all my collection spread out in my loft upstairs, out of sight from regular company just visiting for a bit or over for dinner but we had out of town company so I had to put everything back in totes and… Read more »
AKBob, Glad you enjoyed the “show”! Rick, thanks in advance for the education on the Gold Shield – I’ve been able now to look up my coins at PCGS. Can I copy & paste their image here? I find the background of the old World coins (along w/the ancients) to be almost as interesting as the coins themselves. Since I’m not into coin flipping for profit, I’m not as concerned about which coin will sell for what price. AKBob, I’d love to join you in your pursuit of gold coins, but my meager finances won’t allow it. More power to… Read more »
Sam-I-am, Yes it’s pretty much copy/paste going on. Once you have the page up with your coin on it you can copy/paste the address for us to click & view all of the goods on your coin like mintages, values, provenance if any, and the image. Or take it further like I did with your coin. Click the image for a larger view, click the down arrow at the top right⬇️ for a super high rez photo that opens on its own page. Then copy paste the image(link). I’ll try one now and see if I can do it again(from… Read more »
PS: Sam,
You can post 1 photo and one link per comment, any more than two links can cause delays(for me anyway)…
Rick,
Thanks for the advice! I’ll keep it in mind.
Rick,
What a superb example of a gold coin. Kudos on nabbing that beauty!
Thanks Kaiser!
A USM purchase 12 years back and recently resurrected. The Silver I like as well. 1812 was a significant part of American history.
The Silver reverse displaying the “Flag was Still There” below…
Rick,
I can’t believe how very real-looking the folds in the flag are on that coin; that is beyond fantastic work!
Sam-I-am,
Welcome to the “three gold coin club”! Mine are all 1/10 ounce, so yours are relatively big time compared to mine. One I purchased myself, one my dear departed brother-in-law had given to me as a Christmas present and the third I inherited from him when he sadly (and very suddenly) passed away. Carpe diem, my friend.
Kaiser, One of my trio has a bit of a story as well. My Granddaddy Eiseman was a banker, and could afford whatever he wanted. He thought it would be nice to share his love of coins with my grandmother, so he had a pair of 1915 $2.50 Indian gold coins made into earrings for her. They went out to dinner one night; when they returned, they discovered one of the pair was missing! They went back and searched the restaurant & parking lot, but never found the lost one. After he died (far too young at 64), she kept… Read more »
Sam-I-am,
Thank you, my friend, for the awesome gift of that incredibly heartwarming story. It is indeed moments like this more than any other that make me realize how important it is for me not just to be here but to participate in what can turn out to be such extremely heartfelt exchanges with not just a fellow coin collector but a kindred spirit of a human being. I very much appreciate your sincere sharing, your kind thoughts, and your warm condolences; they all matter and they all mean a lot.
AKBob,
You tell the greatest stories and I love them! Not to mention that your experience with trying to keep and/or get your collection in order absolutely calls to mind how I’ve been working on mine for days at a time recently doing my level best to attempt to create some hopefully logical long term semblance of order and cohesion among my assorted numismatic possessions. Yikes!
Sam-I-am,
Proceeding clockwise on the reverse of the coin from the left, the first inscription “ZWEI (TWO) VEREINSTHALER” represents the face value. Next, the Roman numerals XV (15) are there as such to distinguish that number from the immediately following EIN (ONE) and PFUND FEIN (POUND FINE silver), which put together means “15 of these are equal to one POUND of FINE silver, with a pound weighing 500 grams total. Therefore, thirty Vereinsthaler were worth the equivalent of 500 grams of silver.
Kaiser,
Thanks very much for the education! I had no idea how to read the complete “sentence”, as it were.
Sam-I-am,
It was my absolute pleasure to oblige, and thank you for giving me the opportunity to take at least a small step back into my earlier “Germanic years”.
Hey EC Guru,
Since you’re in on the bidding, today it jumped from 77k to $82,500 currently!
Great Collections gives me unbelievable bidding/buying power ($960k), but that’s not what I have available, not even close! Loose 2- 0’s and that’s totally pushing it.. I’m thinking about bidding for the fun of it, knowing it will bid higher — or will it? I better not…
5 hours to go!
https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/1598572/Russia-1919-Gold-44oz-IngotBar-Bearing-Imperial-Hallmarks-Uncertified-Approx-AGW-398-oz-Ex-Mikhail-Pleshkov-Jr
Rick, there’s over $111K in melt alone!! I would think it’d go for a lot more than melt as it’s got a ton of History!! Please let us know what it ends up going for.
Thx in advance!
P.S. you sure you don’t want to bid on it? We could go halves, lol!!
AKBob,
If I’d held off on my haircut I could have dropped some tens in the hat. Too late!
Kaiser,
Kaiser, . There was supposed to be three laughing Emogis but they didn’t show up! I hadn’t noticed in my previous posts that Emojis aren’t showin* up. I use them a lot too! Oh well, much worse things to worr6 about, l9l!
AKBob,
I’ll take it that I’ve received the “spirit” of your laughing emojis since that’s the heart of the matter anyway.
Incidentally, to make a smiley face here you can use a colon followed immediately by a closing parenthesis. Be sure to leave an extra space between whatever you write and the emoji you’re making or it won’t show up when you’re done. 🙂
Karen set, thx for the tip! I’ll try it here, now! 😉
Kaiser, somehow your name got replaced with Karen! Great, now you’re thinking I think your a “Karen”, lol. Sorry about that, wasn’t intentional! 😉
AKBob,
I wouldn’t think that for a second, my friend; these crazy glitches do occur. Besides, I’ve certainly been called a heck of a lot worse than that in my time! 🙂
I’m glad my emoji instructions made enough sense to you that you were able to use them successfully. Hurray!
Rick,
Lose three zeros on that bidding limit and I’m still out of the game. Incidentally, I just took a look and it appears that particular auction is now over, as in done and dusted. Couldn’t find out how much it went for since I’m not a site member. Oh well.
$104,000 and some change for the Russian gold. It is a 90% gold bar, so the purity came into play, but the history is interesting!
To be a member(to view final sales, etc is just like being signed up for the US Mint or Amazon. An email and the address(in case you do buy) and a password is all it takes. Any payment info is entered after the sale. No CC required up front as far as I can tell?!
Rick,
90% purity, eh? Does that make it “junk gold” like with the old silver coins?
I might just sign up at that site after all. After all, no problem having yet another location my vital statistics can be hacked from!
Hey Rick, Regarding the Russian 1919 gold bar, I quote from the great philosopher Maxwell Smart who once said on many occasions, “Missed it by that much!”
Me too, ohh so close lol
Rick and East Coast Guru,
Ha, you guys must have been playing horseshoes where close counts!
I just saw a 2023 Liberty Medal (silver) sell on EBay for $67 in an auction! I don’t think there’s going to be much upside on this product. I’ve got two, one still sealed/unopened from the Mint and a PCGS PR70, First Strike, Flag Label. I think the upside has now headed (South) for the inversion, lower than mint issue pricing, sadly. Typical of medals and Commemoratives, unfortunately. I purchased mine because I actually liked it. I should have known better as I should have waited and got m8ne for less money. I’m still very happy with both purchases tho.… Read more »
I know it’s been said but…. “If” the mint would’ve have kept the “sold out” in place on these they’d be worth a lot!
They had a golden opportunity to jazz things up and to keep people guessing and even some FOMO moving on toward sales but they blew it big time and they lied.
The honorable Ventris ain’t so honorable imho. I truly hate it for people on a tight fixed income that invested precious money to slab them thinking this would be a hit.
Medals of late are basically overpriced silver rounds. Don’t get me started on the obscenely priced USM bronze medals. Liked the ‘23 design! Maybe look for one on eBay
John Q. Coinage,
Three inch bronze medals for $160. Why does the Mint even pretend they want to sell these at this “gone out of their minds” price?
Tony@GA,
I guess that old expression “I can’t win for losing” exists for a reason. Trust me, Tony, after 77 years here on God’s green earth I’ve run into more instances of exactly that kind of situation than I can remember. As such, while there is in fact no guarantee things will always go our way, the best thing we can do is to not give up and always be willing, ready and hopefully able to give it another try.
A good word sir – thank you!
Tony@GA,
You’re most welcome, my friend.
Tony@GA, the Mint did the same thing for the 2022 Amer Liberty medal (bucking horse) where it appeared to be sold out at roughly half of the mintage limit, only to have the other half dropped into the inventory later. When you see a mintage of 75,000 you got to believe the Mint will make close to that number. I’d be very leery about buying the upcoming silver Flowing Hair if the mintage limit is about the same.
AKBob,
That this sort of thing can occur has been one of my objections to the Gold Coin/Silver Medal situation all along. But you can’t fight city hall, and so it goes.
Sam-I-am,
Here’s some more information on your 1861 German 2 Thaler coin:
2 Vereinsthaler – Free imperial city of Frankfurt – Numista
Says it has a mintage of 1,787,000. Also, that there is edge inscription.
Major D,
Thanks for the link! I’d almost forgotten about the edge inscription, as it’s not easily visible in the holder. “STARK IM RECHT” translates on Google to “strength in law”. No surprise that my coin is the most common of the mintages, and most common condition, as well! Some folks look at value charts and assume their coins are all at the top – I assume all of mine are middle at best.
Major D and Sam-I-am,
That edge inscription is, at least to my way of thinking, a bit of a peculiar one. It is an idiomatic German expression rendered as “STARK RECHT” which translates literally as “STRONGLY RIGHT”, a turn of phrase which could otherwise be interpreted as “Powerfully Correct.” No shrinking violets here, these Frankfurters!
Sam-I-am and Major Day,
I see now from your most recent comment that this has turned into one of those “For want of a nail the battle was lost” scenarios. In my misbegotten attempt at translation of the edge inscription I completely overlooked the clearly all-important word “IM” between the “STARK” and “RECHT” which as a result left me with a rather different (and incorrect) meaning for the phrase. My bad; sorry.
Message to Kaiser from Kaiser: Read inscriptions with greater care!
Major “Day”?
What in holy heck, Batman! Am I by any chance in the grip of some sort of particularly peculiar mental dysfunctionalism today? I just can’t seem to stop making one downright sloppy and pointless mistake after another.
Sam-I-am,
And here’s some more info on your 1500’s Thaler of Rudolph II coin, based on the 1595-coin photo provided by Kaiser:
1 Thaler – Rudolf II (Kuttenberg) – Kingdom of Bohemia – Numista
There are a number of coins from Kingdom of Bohemia that might be your match that are profiled on Numista, which you’ll see if you do a search for 1595 Thaler of Rudolph II. There are mint marks to look for, which identify as Kuttenberg, Joachimsthal, or Budweis.
Major D,
I had that one slabbed by PCGS, also. Let me see about adding their photo…Got it! The holder indicates Kuttenberg. Thanks for reminding me of the Numista resource, also. Very useful.
Major D and Sam-I-am,
You hit the jackpot here, Major D. The Joachimsthal iteration of the coin in question above, this one having been known as the Joachimsthaler, was in fact the “founding member” of the ubiquitous Thaler family, the first coin of that particular name and denomination. It also happens to be, and this courtesy of various subsequent translations which is to say progressions of spelling, the origin of the term “dollar”.
Kaiser, part of loving coins is loving the history of it as well. There’s German influence in our early coins through Christain Gobrecht (father came from Germany– well what later became Germany) and John Reich (US second engraver, born in Bavaria). Design of Liberty Cap Silver Half Dollar by John Reich:
Major D, I really like that reverse in the photo! I really prefer some of the older Eagles on our much earlier coinage. They just look kind a “wilder”, “rougher” Eagles to me. I like that look, it almost could pass as a drawing a child did. Am I making any cents, lol? I’m just having a difficult time expressing how it looks to “Me”. It’s not the perfect look. Seriously, am I making any cents? The new, modern coins look “digital”, almost in a way, fake looking cause they’re so perfect. Don’t get me wrong, I prefer perfection but… Read more »
AKBob,
I get you 100%; the wild and wooly old timey look on coins of the American colonial, Revolutionary and young nation eras is timeless. To feel some sort of need to clean that original appearance up to create a new look that some might believe to be necessary to better appeal to modern sensibilites would indeed be a crying shame.
AKBob, some of those early eagles look like they could be dragons to me. But I agree it does give them a rougher, more appealing character!
Major D, you know, now that you say that about some looking like a dragon, you are correct! If you don5 look twice or closer, you could think it’s a dragon on a few coins made years back! Great point!
AKBob and Major D,
I don’t know if you meant to do so, but you’ve put something very interesting together here just now, as follows:
What are dragons but fairy tale representations of dinosaurs? And what are eagles if not birds. And what are the only remaining descendants of dinosaurs (aka dragons) left on earth? Birds. So eagles, being dinosaur descendants, aren’t as far from being dragons as one might at first think.
Major D,
There’s no question about that. The subject of history has always been of great interest to me and my enthusiam for learning about it still hasn’t waned a bit. I’m glad you brought up the contributions to United States coinage by those two individuals of German heritage and origin. As such we have yet more examples of how the Germans, being second only to the British in their immigration numbers, exercised their considerable influence on the young American nation’s growth and development.
Sam-I-am, I am very thankful you posted your two precious “very old” coins and even better yet, you have had them authenticated and graded. Great job My Friend! I love Eagles on coins! I’m especially in love with the German coins with the Eagle! The design reminds me of 1800’s silver coins produced by our very own US Mint. I wonder if it’s just me or are there other collectors out there that have a “thing” or just a great liking or love of Eagles on coins! Could some of you posters & lurkers respond to that? I would sure… Read more »
AKBob,
I’m glad you enjoyed my “Eagles”! I have a few other “interesting” coins that I’ll share a bit later.
AKBob,
You already know that the place and the time to go if you’re looking for coins with representations of the majestic eagle on them is just about anywhere in Europe and that there are centuries of such coinage to chose from at that.
As for the Walking Liberty Half Dollar, still and always my very favorite coin in the whole world, that masterpiece not only has the triumphant eagle on the reverse but likely the most iconic image of Lady Liberty ever on the obverse. What can surpass that?
Wow USM announced Lost In Space commemorative for 60th anniversary.
Well if that’s the case then they need to come up with a 50 year anniversary coin in 2026 for “Mr Bill” lol..
I think I’m getting old….
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRV4bFcKNVET3J-eyRzpnzQafydQ99WWfUlBQ&s
Rick and John Q. Coinage,
Robbie the Robot, Mr. Bill, Alfred E. Neuman, SpongeBob SquarePants and Gumby. That should just about carry the Mint through the rest of this decade, my friends.
The Mint has officially…
VA Bob,
Considering how often “Jumping The Shark” happens these days in so very many different fields of endeavor I’m beginning to think this might just be America’s new favorite pastime. Pickleball, step aside!
What do you think the mintage will be on the gold one and what do you think the price will be?
This is purely conjecture on my part, but I’d say the mintage limit for FH gold will likely be 10,000 (same as L&B) and the price (if current spot remains steady) will be $3,520 based on the Mint’s 2024 Pricing Grid. However, L&B gold is unavailable with current sales at 5,537. So, perhaps the Mint will make far less than the mintage limit that it states.
ALL, if anyone happens to see when the Mint releases its “release date” and when there’s a photo of it (Flowing Hair) in Gold, the coin. The medal, Silver, is already showing the photo and I “think” the release date! I can’t wait to see the photo but better yet, I can’t wait to hold it in my hot “little” hands, lol! Now no joking about my latter part of my last sentence! Keep politics out of here, lol!! Thanks in advance!
AKBob,
It’s a darn good thing you keep yourself busy because you know what they say about idle hands (little or otherwise), that they are, well, just see for yourself…
Kaiser, Lol!!!!
🙂
Kaiser W, Hey, how come your emojis show up on your posts and mine don’t! No Fair Kaiser!!
AKBob,
I think you’ve got this now, right? 🙂
Nice Adam’s apple.
VA Bob,
Alright. I give up. I have no idea what that means. An explanation would be appreciated.
The flowing hair liberty gal’s neck is just a bit too manly for my taste, is all.
And here I had the distinct impression it looked finger-lickin’ good. Goes to show how we can see the same thing and react in such different ways.
I’ve been watching a 2023 American Silver Liberty Medal (Tree) that’s a Buy It Now on Ebay and it still hasn’t sold for the low asking price of $72.95 . It has about an hour and a half before it’s listing is scheduled to end. You can’t give these medals away it seems! I already have two, one graded and one still sealed/unopened in the original Mints shipping box! These Medals will only be worth a tiny bit over spot Silver in a couple more years! That’s very sad because some of these Medals have a nice design but they… Read more »
AKBob, I’m still miffed about buying a bunch of 2022 silver medals (horse) when it looked like the mintage was going to be around 30,000 (this was back when you could see the available inventory in the source code), only to have the Mint add another 40,000 into availability at the end of the year. This is what’s dropped value IMO. A mintage limit of 75,000 is way, way too high. It really should have been 30,000- for the tree, too.
Major D,
I’m thinking that even with a much lower population these Silver Medals might still be problematic pricewise due to the fact they are not actual coins.
Tell me about it. I bought those 2003 100th anniversary of the National Wildlife Refuge System silver medals. Managed to get all four, only 25000 of each made, except for the Eagle which I believe there were 35000 made. One would think they would be a hot item. Nope. They can be had even now for around an ounce of Mint priced silver, or less. That experience turned me off of Mint medals for good.
VA Bob,
It seems to be getting ever more apparent that US Mint Medals simply do not have enough secondary market appeal or demand to make them a worthwhile Mint purchase.
I agree whole heartily. Especially the silver, but I used to be a buyer for the bronze. I like some of the designs, but the cost doesn’t justify the purchase for me. Private mints make some nice pieces for a better value. I stopped buying from the US Mint altogether last year, after years of slowing down. Still interested, but it will have to be from the sidelines from here on out.
VA Bob, I would never say that the US Mint’s silver medals aren’t nice looking, but I don’t think it’s right for the Mint to charge the same (or even higher) premiums over spot for their silver medals as for their silver coins because medals don’t have the same secondary market appeal and as such value-holding power that coins do. As for the bronze medals, under their original pricing structure they weren’t a bad deal at all and there were quite a few extremely attractive and unusually artistic ones, but at the current price of $160 a pop that particular… Read more »
Personally, I believe the huge bronze medal price increase was intentional because the Mint really don’t want to make these. Higher prices mean fewer buyers, and less product sitting in storage. That why they seem to be switching to silver, IMO, and selling bronze at near silver prices will give them an excuse for declining sales.
VA Bob,
I wouldn’t hesitate to say that you are quite likely right on the money. The extraordinary lengths the Mint went to in order to make the Three Inch Bronze Medals completely unappealing by raising their price to an absolutely absurd level seems to indicate there is no alternative answer other than the Mint looking for a way to put the entire Bronze Medal program to rest.
The 2023 Silver Medal I spoke about in an earlier Post above did NOT sell!! It’s been resisted for the same Buy It Now price! Ugh!
AKBob,
When there are already so many silver coins on the market it isn’t too surprising that silver medals take a back seat when it comes to collector or flipper interest.
AKBob,
Unfortunately, my friend, this isn’t a Ventris Gibson aka US Mint issue. This situation comes straight from the US Congress who chose to decree that the Mint could only pair these types of Gold Coins with Silver Medals and not with Silver Coins.